The Gerrard/Torres partnership still gives me nightmares
Fuck. I remember his Euro 2008 winning goal like it was yesterday. For all the younger ones and people who missed out on this for different reasons.
What a legend, wish it had worked out better at Chelsea, but he still had some good moments
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Ac milan legend
Never going to love a player the way I did this guy. Was phenomenal at his peak
The end of the The Kid era.
It is a shame Kobe play tennis with his team in his last game. Not to mention he missed two good chances. :( At least he managed to dribble past Villa.
At one point, the best striker in the world. Farewell Fernando, thanks for all the beautiful memories
He was my hero growing up, so long el nino.
Didn't win a league?
Holy shit, the players of my generation are starting to retire :(.
Fernando was perhaps the best #9 in the world from 2007-2009. Among his noteworthy moments was ushering in Spain's golden age from 2008-2012 with his sublime goal against Germany in the 2008 European Championship. He had amazing athleticism, intelligence, class, work rate, imposing hold-up play, and a fearsome shot. He is Spain's 3rd all-time leading scorer and Atletico's 2nd all-time leading scorer, and should be celebrated as a legend by both of them as well as Liverpool.
"....But how strange, Fernando. You haven't left yet and I miss you already."
Easily my favorite striker of the mid/late 2000s along with Adriano. :(
i love him
Looking at this thread makes me realise how much people just ignore or are simply ignorant of player's performances outside of their time at Barcelona or Madrid. Perfect example is David Villa, he was Spain's best striker before he even got to Barcelona. Look at his record for Valencia and to a lesser extent Zaragoza (and remembering to not compare him to Messi and Ronaldo because they are freaks of nature).
Adding in his Valencia teammate David Silva as an example too. He was fantastic at Valencia.
Ayyy we're on the board
Milan Icon. Bullet header.
Other than Henry at Arsenal don’t think I’ve ever held my breath more when an opposition striker got the ball more than I did with Torres at Liverpool exciting and scary to watch use to tear vidic a new one
Enjoy retirement champion
Happy retirement legend. I’ll never stop supporting ya
Absolute legend! That knee injury in 2010 really hurt his career but in his prime he was world class
Gonna miss that beautiful bastard.
Man!! Being in the time now where all my most beloved players are retiring is making me all sorts of emotional. Will always have so much love for Torres & watching him play in his prime was unforgettable. Injuries or not he was always gave his all, whatever that looked like at the time. Only respect for that. Gracias Niño
Him and David Villa were absolute magic from about 08 to 2011ish. That spanish WC team was a treat to watch.
Just a single World Cup more than me... Thank you for being a "must buy" both in PES and in football manager
Will always love Torres for his goal against barca in the 2012 champions League.
THAT goal against Barcelona in 2012. His pricetag was repaid that night.
I went into school the following day with the biggest smile in the world.
The closest thing to R9 we had before the injuries. Absolute goal machine.
Pretty good numbers considering he really fell off, and his numbers have been dissapointing, since he joined us (8 years ago). I wish things worked out better for him, and I will never forget his goal versus Barcelona (Neville orgasm).
Pre-injury Torres was one of the most exciting strikers to watch. He had the right balance of strength and pace, scored some bangers, and generally had a pretty well rounded game (dribbling, shooting, heading, passing).
Absolute legend, I remember when he was the exciting young guy, crazy to see him retire
He was one of the first people I remember idolising when I was younger
A shame he never won a league title.
his style reminds me Gabriel Batistuta
Miss you Nando
Yay!! AC Milan represents.
He was the reason I started watching football...
All the icons of my youth retiring makes me sad. :(
The El the El Niño El The
i'm not crying. you're crying.
great career. good luck to him in his next endeavors
One of my memories of Torres is him scoring against us (United). He shot some orthodox shot that hit the top crossbar and it went in... he did this like twice... I think I've never feared seeing a player stand against us as I did with Torres... best wishes to him!
Rojiblanco eterno, gracias legenda
How did he only score 6 in Japan
De niño a leyenda. Still own a Torres shirt from almost when he first played with Atleti. One of my favourite players of all time
Was clearly unbelievable during his time at milan
FIFA 10 on the PSP made me like this guy and Liverpool.
The last proper striker that the Spanish national team has had. Well, according to me, anyways!
I feel old.
My first favourite player
I still remember when he started playing in Atlético de Madrid when our club was at its worst time. Torres was the only good thing in that atleti, like a kind of reminder that we Were a big club once. When he left to Liverpool I was so sad and Liverpool became my second club because of him.
Thanks for your 1 stupid goal at Milan.
I remember him when he first started in atletico.. Such an awesome striker
His career ended when he went to Chelsea
Respect. I started following footy in 2009 and Torres was the main factor in me initially choosing to support Liverpool. Thanks to him I ended up walking the path towards falling in love with this club. You were one of the best in your hay day YNWA.
I love this guy!
Fuck, what a legend
It’s been the end of the El Niño era for 10 years now
His Armband proved he was a RED!! thanks for the all the fantastic goals
Thank you for everything Niño Torres, enjoyed your Liverpool CL nights so much as a kiddo. Thanks for so much!!:)
El niño always crash Barça but i still love him. In the world cup he made the assit to Iniesta I think. Anyway a pure 9!!
Remember him from the time when he scored against Barcelona in the semi final.
Torres and Villa, when fully fit and in form was one of the most terrifying partnerships
Was about to say 'how is it that iniesta looks so much older than torres when they're the same age..." ooooh right, he's El Niño.....
Time for the MLS?
So long champ 😢
As a Chelsea fan, even though it didn't work out, all the best to Nando, his attitude was always great.
Was he first name I learned playing soccer, still my favourite and always will be. Thanks for some phenomenal entertainment. Will be missed but I hope he enjoys retirement.
His work ethic really reflects with all us fans. Had some low moments but always appreciated for trying his best. Enjoy retirement champion.
I still remember Spain’s World Cup finals like yesterday and how awesome it was. Truly one of the best games ever.
Enjoy retirement Torres will always be a fan
Thank you Niño, you made me love football and Liverpool.
6-1 loss in his last game, ouch.
Decent career :'D
did he never win a domestic title?
I will always remember Torres for his goal against Barcelona in the Champion's League semi-final. My hero. Farewell El Niño!
It has been an era four like 4 years max tbh
His 'era' ended about 10 years ago
I love watching his goal compilation at Liverpool, almost all his goals are just perfectly placed finishes. Ball glides off his foot so smooth, very few screamers.
If I had gotten into football a few years later I could see myself becoming a Liverpool fan but I saw Henry and bergkamp first
Its funny he never seemed like a world class striker(after his liverpool days i mean) he really was an underrated striker
It's a shame he never won anything at Liverpool. Spent the prime of his career there and missed out on trophies.
As someone who’s second favorite team is Liverpool and fourth favorite team is Chelsea, I have very mixed feelings on his career
Nino era? This era ended with Chelsea.
Amazing player. The best out and out striker I've ever seen live. Suarez was a freakish talent capable of the sublime, but took a bit longer to settle and improve his finishing. Not Torres. We knew we had signed a world class forward from day one. That goal against Chelsea was the opener and from then on, just wow. He could score from anywhere. Keepers were never safe. He scored some goals where every single touch was quite literally perfect and were just simply brilliant.
Broke my heart and lose my respect when he left. With hindsight you can understand it, but as a football fan I don't care. It hurt. He was brilliant at self PR, he seemed to 'get' the club and became an honorary scouser. Seeing him in the blue of Chelsea - at a time when we had quite an intense rivalry with, after some very intense CL matches - just felt all kinds of wrong. Daniel Agger smashing his elbow into the face of Torres on his Chelsea debut was incredibly satisfying. I don't care how that sounds. It was.
I was happy with him returning to Atletico and played out his career where he was respected.
Hope he has a long and happy retirement.
I'm interested to know. When you think of Torres what club do you think of?
Everyone should be aware that the only source for VAR running at 50 frames per second is that Sky HDTV broadcasts at 50 frames per second.
The VAR officials absolutely have access to video running at a higher framerate than that broadcasted out on Sky, so the entire basis of this argument is defunct. The margin of error for 120 fps video would be 5.7cm per frame, 240fps 2.85cm, and 500fps ~1.4cm.
Edit: Ultra-Motion Cameras provided by Hawk-Eye work up to 340 fps. The VAR system uses 8 slow-motion and 4 ultra-motion cameras
With a 340 fps utra-motion camera, the "margin of error" using the Daily Mail's 23.4kph (which isn't sourced either lol) from one frame to another would be 1.91cm.
I'm going to need a better source than the Daily Mail to believe they are only using 50fps cameras for something where they need such a high degree of precision to make calls.
There's no way they aren't using 200-300fps cameras for VAR.
Cameras can shoot at much higher frame rate than 50 FPS.Saying it can “never” be accurate is just false.
They don't shoot at 50fps lol
It's the best we have at the moment, it's better than a linesman at spotting offside.It's not because it's not perfect that we have to settle for less?
Get this shit propaganda out of here
Where is the source on VAR cameras only being 50FPS? Are the folks at the Daily Mail just chatting shit again because that sounds simply too dumb to be true.
Is VAR more accurate than the linesman? If yes, keep it. Not that difficult. VAR doesn't have to be 100% accurate. It just has to be more accurate than a linesman.
Well a question that no one is asking is, is there really a discernible advantage to being 2.4 cm offside? The whole purpose is to prevent attackers from cherry picking. It insures that neither defender nor attacker have advantage toward the ball. Can we argue that 2.4 cm is an advantage.
Sterling did everything right there, caught them sleeping and made a well timed run that was off by 2.4 cm. I can’t call that offside or unfair advantage personally, but some of you might. Weren’t there old rules about needing daylight between attacker and defender?
I have been saying that since the start. If it comes down to those margins, it should not be applied. Only for clear oversights
You got silver for posting a graphic that just isn’t accurate. Misinformation is real
The problem is that the offside rule was never meant to be scrutinized down to the millimeter. It was meant to prevent teams that send their attackers to be meters behind the other teams defense or just waiting at the goal itself. It was meant to be a rule that the human eye could enforce on a case by case basis. The attacker being ahead of the line by a few inches is not something the offside rule was put in place for
This is really a moot point as long as humans have the last say. Var is an assistant not a replacement. It has dramatically reduced the margin of error compared to no var, and has removed the potential for some really obvious refereeing mistakes affecting the outcome of the game, which was previously the case.
Im sure var implementation for these marginal calls are going to improve to be less disruptive etc. in the end its still a human being that decides.
VAR using video technology is far more definitive than human eyes (Linesmen ) so this logic is stupid.
But not surprising its Daily Mail considering they have been wierdly ranting about VAR for some time now.
Call went against City so I ll allow it
offside is a rule that was introduced to eliminate goal hanging.
it was never intended to be the razor thing margins where a hairs width to far means you're out the way were using it now.
Bollocks. We have super slow mo cameras filming every game and you can show every frame and know the exact time a ball was played
So bored of the anti-VAR agenda. We’re getting better decisions now. Anybody expecting 100% of decisions to be correct is just wilfully ignorant. It’s not 100% but it’s far better than just letting the refs make split decisions on the spot.
This is the result of a Jonathan Wilson tweet midweek
Is it supposed to be definitive, or simply a tool used for correcting obvious erroneous calls on the pitch that have big consequences for the game?
The refs are human and don't always have good sightlines for every call, isn't it just supposed to be a safety net?
Quit whinging, why a 0.1second difference matters.
Decent argument but I don't think however, that it really proves that VAR can never be definitive, suggests more that they get cameras with a higher frame rate.
Image taken from the Daily Mail.
I'm not a fan of the Mail, but I thought it's an interesting graphic, especially around "clear and obvious". Sports like cricket have a margin of error where you stick to the on-field call, should football consider a margin of error? So if you're offside by under 5cm, you accept that the technology isn't that precise? One major issue I can see is the linesmen being encouraged to keep their flags down, meaning the benefit would always go to the attacker, though I know some people prefer that.
If you can't read the text in the image, here it is:
USING the tight offside given against Raheem Sterling last weekend as an example, it can be shown how VAR has a margin of error that means officials sometimes cannot be certain if someone is offside. Imaging software showed Sterling to be 2.4cm offside ( just under an inch). Sterling was moving at about 14.5mph (23.4kph). Cameras used by VAR run at 50 frames per second. In the 0.02 secs between frames, he would move 13cm. If he was 2.4cm offside at Frame B that means he was 10.6cm onside at Frame A when the ball was about to be played. VAR has to use the frame which shows the ball has categorically been played but the exact ‘first point of contact’ is likely to have been between Frame A and Frame B. At an unknown point between those frames, Sterling went from onside to offside. VAR cannot have known for certain when the ball was played so there is a 13cm margin of error on a decision which ruled Sterling 2.4cm offside. It could be bigger than that too. The faster players move in opposite directions, the larger the margin of error.
USING the tight offside given against Raheem Sterling last weekend as an example, it can be shown how VAR has a margin of error that means officials sometimes cannot be certain if someone is offside.
Imaging software showed Sterling to be 2.4cm offside ( just under an inch). Sterling was moving at about 14.5mph (23.4kph). Cameras used by VAR run at 50 frames per second. In the 0.02 secs between frames, he would move 13cm. If he was 2.4cm offside at Frame B that means he was 10.6cm onside at Frame A when the ball was about to be played.
VAR has to use the frame which shows the ball has categorically been played but the exact ‘first point of contact’ is likely to have been between Frame A and Frame B. At an unknown point between those frames, Sterling went from onside to offside.
VAR cannot have known for certain when the ball was played so there is a 13cm margin of error on a decision which ruled Sterling 2.4cm offside. It could be bigger than that too. The faster players move in opposite directions, the larger the margin of error.
Surely the have multiple cameras, no?
It's more than obvious that VAR gets more framerate than what we see on TV.
13cm is a pretty sizeable margin of error
Just need better cameras with higher framerate. It's the sport that moves the most money on the planet, so budget isn't an issue.
Edit: i believed this article with no reason. They are not 50 fps and the issue is negligible.
VAR has shown that having rules which are subjective or rely on determining accidental contract are poorly written rules. The problem isn’t VAR, it’s that the laws of the game weren’t updated when VAR was introduced.
A hell lot more definitive than a person running up and down the field trying to look at two things at the same time for 90 minutes
Without even doing any research, they is no way in hell the VAR cameras are only able to record 50 fps. I can record 240 fps footage on my phone
Bad point, there's always a margin of error, same with Goal Line Technology. As long as the same rule is applied to everyone it's fine.
As for people arguing for a clear offside, that's dumb. You're just moving the margin for error and in most times increasing the margin.
When it comes down to minutiae like this, can't we accept that it really doesn't matter? The offside rule wasn't made to be nitpicked over so much. The whole idea of the rule in the first place was to stop goal hanging and make the game more competitive.
When someone gets called centimetres offside, it just seems out of the spirit of the game.
Honestly at that distance just call it onside. The offside rule wasn't introduced to deal with minor infractions like that. If the player has timed his run perfectly to within 0.02 seconds then it's definitely within the spirit of the law if not the letter to let play continue.
I completely understand the rationale here. My issue is: the margin of error will be different based on speed, running angle, etc. Are we going to use a single margin of error? If so, we are back to the same issue being debated here. If we want to change it based on those variables, how are we going to define it? I don’t think we have the technology to automate that, at least not yet.
Similarly, if the margin of error is 12.0cm (just for argument’s sake), what if the person is 12.1cm or 11.9cm off? Do we really think we won’t have the same discussion we are having now?
VAR isn’t perfect. But right now, at least it’s incredibly clear what the criteria are for offside.
https://i.imgur.com/N28K2f4.jpg edit: fuck i forgot to give him a red lightsabre
If the people running VAR can't look at a still image without lines and clearly identify that it's offside then it shouldn't count. The offside has to be clear and obvious because otherwise you're ruling out goals that were perfectly fine and causing unnecessary controversy.
Just upgrade the cameras. Never, my ass
Offside now is determined by armpit hair
does this imply that a linesman 30 yards away trying to look through a bunch of players whilst also checking the exact moment the player played the ball is going to be more accurate?
The rule is black and white regarding VAR. soccer been played since forever this is a new radical change. It’ll take a while to get it right. Rn the whole soccer community is watching closely. Changes will be made.
This is why VAR currently can't be definitive, not never.
A) this picture is wrong because it assumes they only have 50 fps, which is a comically stupid thing to assume.
B) Of course it isn't 100% perfect, but even if it's only 0.01% more definitive than real life then it's worth it. And we know it's a much bigger improvement than that, and will only get better as time goes on.
Doesn’t this explanation assume that the Offside Line (where the 2nd last defender is) is constant? But in reality, this defender would likely also be moving in the same direction as Sterling, making the margin of error (distance that Sterling has covered between frames, in respect to the shifting Offside line) smaller?
First of all you should compare bar to the naked eye,this sort of comparison is redundant,well what would you rather have refree making blunders or VAR sometimes having slight errors due to slim margins ! Come on your argument and article which looks from a stupid Indian newspaper is weak.
I watch a lot of cycling(Tour de France for example) and there are differnt kind of cameras that build the picture in different ways to avoid that issue. Instead of building the picture from top to bottom from left to right u can do it from left to right, but from the exact same timeframe bcs with a "normal" camera u would get the bottom person in a later timeframe. If it works in cycling races with over 60km/h u can be sure it works good enough in a footballgame.
we did it boys, var is no more
this graphic also perfectly illustrates my argument the other day that the current "any goalscoring body part" definition of the law disadvantages attacking players, or specifically attacking runs.
Due to a good attacking run having the player running towards the goal at the moment of the pass, and a good defensive run having the player running away from the goal, being "in line" actually requires the attacking player to be disadvantaged in his starting position by a good 50cm go 1 metre, rather than simply a "not advantaged" position
edit: my long-winded explanation of what I mean from an older comment:
but in this case timing your run perfectly means either being further back with your feet than the defender, rather than in line, or somehow running while leaning your body the other waylike imagine an attacker and defender standing face to face in identical, positions on an exact line. the player is onside. now imagine there's a teammate who can pass to the attacker. A good attacking run would require anticipating the pass but not running past the defender until the pass has been made. but in this scenario, if the attacking player times his anticipation perfectly and leans forward right as the pass is about to be made, but only actually moves, ie. runs, once the pass has left the foot, he'd be offside simply for anticipating.a defender however can anticipate the moment before a pass and step up, free to lean and anticipate however he likes. this means defenders are allowed to anticipate where attackers are not.that's my point, that in order for an attacker to anticipate a pass, required for making a good run, their feet in fact need to be further back than that of the defender, meaning their starting position has to actually be inferior to the defender's for it not to be offside, rather than them having to be in a beneficiary position for it to be offside.So from an equal footing, defenders are allowed to anticipate while attackers are only allowed to react to passesfeel like i'm being really long in trying to explain something proper simple
but in this case timing your run perfectly means either being further back with your feet than the defender, rather than in line, or somehow running while leaning your body the other way
like imagine an attacker and defender standing face to face in identical, positions on an exact line. the player is onside. now imagine there's a teammate who can pass to the attacker. A good attacking run would require anticipating the pass but not running past the defender until the pass has been made. but in this scenario, if the attacking player times his anticipation perfectly and leans forward right as the pass is about to be made, but only actually moves, ie. runs, once the pass has left the foot, he'd be offside simply for anticipating.
a defender however can anticipate the moment before a pass and step up, free to lean and anticipate however he likes. this means defenders are allowed to anticipate where attackers are not.
that's my point, that in order for an attacker to anticipate a pass, required for making a good run, their feet in fact need to be further back than that of the defender, meaning their starting position has to actually be inferior to the defender's for it not to be offside, rather than them having to be in a beneficiary position for it to be offside.
So from an equal footing, defenders are allowed to anticipate while attackers are only allowed to react to passes
feel like i'm being really long in trying to explain something proper simple
Yes, and this is why "unobvious mistakes" shouldnt be reversed. Offsides shouldnt be decided by 2-3 centimeters
That Sterling goal was not an offside, Celtas goal yesterday was not an offside etc etc
City media and PR cell in full effect now.
I like VAR but for offside calls they should definitely have some BoD towards the attacker.
Jesus turns off the light and climbs into bed. A mechanical sound comes from the door. Jesus opens his eyes and sees a monster with a square head. It's VAR. Watching him, judging him, following his every movement, but never fair.
Why don't they just use 120fps?
They should calculate a margin of error for these calls, and if it falls within that, the refs call stands.
Are we not bound to continue to increase the fps tho?
I’m confused, is he still not offside though?
So use higher frame rate cameras for VAR? Why isn't that an option?
Pretty sure the law states that the benefit of doubt always goes to the attacker. So really its not writing a new law if a margin of error was introduced.
Flex Phantom will fix these troubles.
While the math is correct, the initial assumptions of 50 FPS and 14.5 MPH are too weak to take this seriously. Cool graphic, though.
VAR is there to help refs out, why is this a hard concept?
Seems like an easy fix once we have high refresh rate cameras recording VAR footage in the future. But still, even then you cannot ever make a perfect offside call because of a multitude of factors. When exactly has the passer released the ball so he's not touching it at all? Where does the arm end and the shoulder begin of the attacking player, you can score with one but not with the other, so you can't measure that exactly too. When it comes to tight calls like that it's better to be on the cautious side and give the offside.
Just use the Umpire's Call system from Cricket.
Minor detail but true not detrimental though
Just put lines every millimeter of the pitch and trackers on the players. Simple fix
To be fair, I bet the side line's referee has a larger of margin than error.
It’s still better then the human eye so does this really matter?
Lol how can VAR cameras be only running at 50 fps?
Serious question: why is the hand/arm considered in an offside call such as this when the hand/arm is not a playable part of the body? If the shoulder, foot, head breaks the plane of offside then I can understand it. But the arm? How does the arm being offside give the player an advantage if it can’t be use to play the ball?
Either it's a typo or the whole article is inaccurate.
My guess is the latter sadly.
VAR is needed and this is a start. I seriously doubt the frame rate is only 50fps. One could also argue when the exact moment of the forward "pass" takes place. Like, is it when the ball first touches the foot or when the ball leaves the foot. How would the time it takes for the ball to contact the foot, compress, expand, and then leave the foot compare to this time in between frames?
What body part is always taken in consideration for off-side? Does the head count? The arms? Or feet?
More definitive than any human or combination of humans could ever be though, so I don't see why people keep using this as an argument against it.
Now try this in the last century of naked eyed referrees
Rather have VAR make the call than the linesman
VAR does not have a defined margin of error. A human is reviewing footage, not a robot
recent research in computer vision suggests that it might be possible to interpolate between two frames accurately
I assumed VAR was using high speed cameras.
its fucking quantum mate
Somewhere around this point we need to make a decision. If it's uncertain maybe it should go in favor of the attacker if. At the end of the day, football is a game of centimeters, but offsides shouldn't be where games are decided. At some point we need to recognize that the small centimeter advantages are not why the offside rule exists and if it's literally in between frames I don't think the defense should get bailed out.
Now saying it without crying
Been saying this for a while. VAR as a concept is great but the rules have to be changed to adapt to the way they use VAR. Offside for example needs to be changed. Because being 0.0001 mm offside is ridiculous. VAR should detect things that would've also been detectable by a human. Such a tiny bit of offside couldn't ever been seen by a ref. Real life football isn't Fifa 19.
Higher FPS camera???
We've had VAR in MLS for a while and I've always thought that using it to plot out if someone was 1 cm offside vs 1 cm onside is a stupid usage of it.
The rule is there so that people don't stand two feet offside and gain a huge advantage. If it takes a Video Ref gain frame by frame to maybe call it offside or not then just let the call on the field stand (which should be benefit to the attacker).
I get that technically it is a "clear and obvious error" because offside is supposed to be black and white, but the reality is that there is a margin of error and so things like Sterling's offside are not clear and obvious mistakes enough for VAR to overturn to call on the field.
City already trying to shit talk VAR
If the linesman looks at the ball the moment it is played he cannot accurately assess offside if the attacker is outside his field of view.
If he looks at the player who is potentially offside to judge his position he has to determine the moment the ball is played by ear. In that case the speed of sound vs the speed of light introduces its own error.
Higher speed cameras at least have the potential to reduce the margin of error.
The other thing is how do you know where his armpit starts
Well. If this is a general statement that all measurements are associated with errors, then that is nothing new. Science is doing this for quite some time.
Then football has to decide what is worse: a) a goal given that was offside, or b) a goal not given cause of offside, although in fact there was no offside. Fans and players generally seem to agree that b) is worse.
Then we need a confidence intervall and everything would be crystal clear. There is no problem whether it was "actually" offside. If we cannot confidentl tell with our technology that it is offside, then it is not offside.
The framerate is only one source of error. Actually drawing the line is also not trivial, depending on the accuracy we want.
God I shouldn't have bunked Math classes for football
If only people spent as much time arguing about more importnant matters as they do for fucking VAR
Now do one for goal line technology and how Liverpool actually won the league last year.
If it cannot be perfect let's do nothing to better it.
Not to mention using a linesman a.k.a moving human to determine offside is dumb idea at the first place
There needs to be the equivalent of cricket's umpire's call for offside decisions.
Will Var become a political tool of the richest teams?
What’s the margin of error for identifying somebody’s armpit.
Even if the cameras are accurate, how is the shoulder being determined.
I think calling offside this tight is out of the spirit of the rule. The rule is to discourage cherry picking behavior, and keep the players tighter. An inch or two on either side isnt really the spirit I personally think.
Oh, soccer follows the rules of physics. no shit. It's the best we can do, better than nothing.
You could have a drone or mini robot on a rail system trained to stay in line with the last defender
I used tivo to check Man City's third goal against West Ham and in two consecutive frames one was before the player crossed the ball and the next frame was after the ball was struck. There was no frame in between which showed the player making contact with the ball.
The thing is, in the first frame the attacker was onside and in the second frame he was offside. The TV station (BT Sport) showed the second frame in its replay and the commentator said it was offside, then VAR came back and used the first frame to rule that he was onside.
What they need is cameras with more frames per second to capture the precise moment a player makes contact with the ball when playing a forward pass.
We need eye hawk, like tennis
The absolute state of City fans.
All the players are just going to have to naruto run
Thankfully the pause button exists
Why is nobody discussing how the point where a shoulder becomes an arm is not at all clear? And would vary from player to player?
All posts claiming anything related to technology can "NEVR" be are BS. There's no technical limitation that forces VAR cameras to run at 50fps forever, even if they do now (which I don't know). Bunch of bull.
welcome to var?
Borderline decisions will always be an issue. What VAR does is put an end to blatantly wrong decisions.
Or....they should shoot at higher fps...
Wait...in the image provided isn’t the player offside at both A and B? The offside rule states that any part of the body which can score a goal (in this case his head) is in front of the last defender when the ball is played, and his head touches the black line of B which is clearly further than the last defender...am I missing something?
if you gonna use precise numbers then use precise scale m8.
What a ridiculous article
What a load of bollocks
Imagine thinking they use 50 fps camera in this day and age, my phone has 69 fps camera ffs.
This is why I never thought the TV replays were fair on the ref, when HD television was introduced and they started screenfreezing the offside situation at the 'exact' moment the ball was played it felt like it wasn't realistic as there's no way for the ref to see this.
I always thought screenfreezing when the ball already left the feet, which often was the norm before, was more fair. In any case it seems like some margin of error should be built in; the rule should be changed so 'close calls' are in fact on-side, so VAR isn't so unrealisticly used on every offside call.
Mountains out of mole hills comes to mind here. Yes as a city fan its frustrating to have goals wiped off and the fact its happened two games in a row to us clearly shows that; FIFA, UEFA, The FA, The President, The Queen and King Kong are all conspiring to stops us winning the league again.
It'll even itself out amongst all sides over the season. The most attacking sides will be penalised the most due to the amount of times their in a position that can alter the game. VAR is frustrating but it's only going to make the game better.
Your infographic is wrong and you should feel bad.
Minecraft runs with more fps than that wtf
Better than not having it.
It's all about corruption, you could handpick a frame with an offside despite having one without an offside for like a whole minute of a play, VAR was meant to erase corruption and ease decisions but it only deepens the problem.
That's why some fans argue that some teams are calling VAR to gain an edge and referees are listening to them, like River Plate at Libertadores, "let's pressure a VAR to get something from it".
IMHO it only worsen the problem.
"Never" is a strong word. Clearly the issue exists because of framerate. Framerate can be increased with technology over time. As with all things, VAR is a work in progress. It will improve.
City fans getting creative with their crying now. Two cups and the league not enough for the greedy shits.
VAR is against the spirit of the game as far as I’m concerned. There are much bigger issues which should have been addressed before looking at VAR. Diving, hounding the ref, time wasting, faking injuries, racism to name a few. Wrong calls by the ref are as much a part of the game as Tottenham not winning a trophy, or Man City’s financial doping, or this being Liverpool’s year, or Arsenal’s defense being comical.
As fans, we long remember the pain of injustice of a wrong call, a goal ruled out for offside, a goal ruled in despite being offside, or a handball not given. Some of the most iconic moments in the history of the game would have been just another overturned decision by VAR. From Geoff Hurst’s second in 1966, Maradona’s Hand Of God in 86, Josip Simunic’s three yellow cards in Germany, to Pedro Mendes’ legitimate long range goal embarrassing Roy Carroll at Old Trafford being ruled out, Van Persie’s red card against Barcelona or Rooney’s dive to end the Invincibles run.
Just look at Man City’s 5-0 opening day win, one goal ruled in and one ruled out, in the end it made fuck all difference to the end result but it ended up making the spectacle of VAR feeling like a decision from the third umpire in cricket and took the emotion out of the decisions. No thanks. If I wanted exact rules I’d watch cricket, or American football or just stick to FIFA. The whole point since the inception of the rules was that they are an interpretation at the discretion of the referee. Not something to review every five minutes.
Me, I prefer the old way, even if it costs my team dearly, for that was always within the spirit of the game rather than the sanitized crap the game will become.
Fake news, the camera is likely 500fps, also the human body is a moving object so we can calculate how much it moved in the time between frames.
Cmon guys, the whole argument of Var not being accurate is so old.
Would it be possible to add something like GPS sensors in the players boots and the ball so they can pinpoint exact locations of all the players? I sure there are some technical hurdles to clear but why rely on a visual review if there is, in theory, a way to be more exact? Aside from the technical issues, and probably cost, are there other drawbacks I'm not thinking of?
FUCKING THANK YOU
I prefer the way the Eredivisie handles VAR. No technology, but only replays. If the VAR assistant can't see a clear offside on replays then he can't make the call so there's still a margin of error.
The problem isn't VAR. VAR is just exposing how poorly written some of the laws of the game are.
Well in frame B he is off so VAR is correct. Fuck this infographic
There needs to be a margin of error. Cricket has been using Hawkeye for years and understands it has a margin of error that means whatever the initial decision of the umpire stands.
Football has to figure out its margin of error and apply it, otherwise offside decisions will always look weird.
6 fucking seasons with Giroud up top. Then Wenger goes and buys Lacazette and Auba in half a year.
People saying Auba is wasted because of Lacazette are dumb, Laca and Auba compliment each other perfectly.
Those 2 carried us last season.
Lacca with his back to the goal is the best player of all time
Definitely the best due in top leagues.
Wengers parting gift to us
"Auba isnt world class until he does it in the Prem."
I miss his talent so much, such a monster.
Wish we had someone like Aub 😭
not gonna lie these two kinda remind me of yorke and cole at united. and it annoys me.
Should really get top four with that partnership.
Aubameyang and Lacazette have both gone above 30 since Aubameyang joined a year and a half ago. Do United and Chelsea have one current player at 20? Surely they're just above it at best.
We’ll be adding Pepe to that list soon too.
To think these two could have also been in the French squad together
Auba is not exactly underrated, but I don’t think he gets as much praise as he deserves. He’s a really versatile and reliable strike. This post is about the partnership, but he’s very dangerous alone as well. He makes great runs, he is very able when he gets to go head to head, he can hold play. Today he scored from the middle of play.
While playing for Dortmund there was of course interest for him—but not enough to get him moving. I think more than a few clubs would have gotten their money’s worth. That we got to keep hold of him for so long was great, but also weird.
Arsenal is a big club, but he deserves the kind of hype which would put him beyond that. But there’s just something about him which doesn’t inspire that—something else than his performances.
The 2 players I wanted at Liverpool ~3 years ago. Third was Griezmann. Sigh
why have arsenal been so dire in this period tho
Time to make some adjustments to my Fantasy Team.
If only Wenger spent money when he should have Arsenal would have dominated for years but instead Wenger lost the plot with his British babies, didn’t spend, sold his best players to rivals. Then in his last season buys auba and laca cmon arsrne 10 years too late
They suck dick compared to lfc front three, the super European champions.
How many trophies?
Nice stats but both are always missing in big games.
Arsenal have such a potent strike force, if they could fix a few things in their squad they'd be challenging.
This is great to see. Coventry especially have suffered horrendously under SISU. Really feel for them.
Probably sank a whole players wages into the ink that printed this
Always nice to know we aren't alone with shite ownership issues. Wish you all the best this season Bolton.
Sigh. Sad to see this. I've always had a soft spot foe them when they went from Big Sam Bullies to Arsenal Lite for a while back then. Hope they see the end of the tunnel soon.
If a Coventry fan appreciates it, good enough for me
Brilliant of them.
I'm not undermining Bolton's situation in any way, but it's noteworthy that alot of the top players in Europes big 6 leagues could level their tax bills in an instant. I wish they got the attention that they deserve...
That’s a great touch. Makes me sad seeing the blue ribbons all over Coventry lately because they’re always a sign the club is in a really dire place.
I’ve been watching Bolton for nearly 20 years and today was one of the best games I’ve ever been to.
I’ve never seen players play with the kind of passion our lads did and they should all be proud. I love that club and it’s players like that that prove that you can’t kill a football team.
Great gesture and a great effort by fans of both teams to get nearly 9,000 there considering tickets only went on sale 24 hours before!
Are we just forgetting about him playing for Newcastle then?
Played on the left for Newcastle and has played CB for Liverpool too
Talk about a Dutch army knife.
Gini scored a super hat-trick playing for Newcastle in midfield. Not even mentioned
The Dutch Dirk Kuyt.
Against Barcelona second leg: God.
He played as 9 and CB at Liverpool as well. This guy is such a great player. Sure not world class, but he's the guy you need in the team to make others play world class. And he can do that on every position.
Wouldn't that probably look similar for every player if you look into their history till the E youth??
That smile, That damn smile
Between Gini and Milner we have more than enough coverage at every position
He played striker for us one game too.
Big game player
Guy is a freak. Incredibly versatile and solid player. It was another great buy from Liverpool
He played striker/false nine for Liverpool this season
He never tried goalie? Man. That's poor adaptability right there.
The FM simulation guys should do a all Ginni team.
Just a crap O'Shea
When did he play Lb for Liverpool?
what the fuck
Poor mans Kevin Großkreutz
FM legend in that regard. Buy him and you have everything covered.
One less position then Kevin Großkreutz I see
I remember Rijkaard playing brilliant in the spits position against Germany
I feel like a player this versatile should be worth among the most. He can replace anyone injured on the squad which is very valuable. But he’ll never go for 89 million like Macguire...
Such an old graphic, no clue why it’s been posted now
Was he the manager at Newcastle?
He is a complete team on his own
using youth setup positions is kinda cheating though
One of the most underrated CMs out there. Good LFC and Klopp realizing that.
Is this Borini?
Could make a similiar one for Milner as well
Modern John O’Shea
Played 9 vs barca away leg as well
He played at newcastle to
i remember him playing CB for us once and doing a decent job. man is everywhere
I love how Gini keeps growing as a player, he reminds me more and more of John Barnes
I need to make one of these of Saul, he’s played almost every position
He started up front for us in the first leg vs Barca, and will likely start the community shield vs city on the wing with Mane not returning till Monday and Salah only having 45mins and Bobby 30mins of preseason football played expect Ox-Origi-Gini front 3 tomorrow.
Dutch love a long word don’t they
I remember that he used to be a completely different player when he made his debut, much more like a technical number 10, great to see how he developed
Wtf Sparta striker and right back
That smil, that damned smile
Bought him on FUT and placed him in goal for Metzger FC, you’re welcome.
Throughout his career he kept the same smile, what a legend
Still underrated. Amazing guy and proud to have him at Liverpool.
played center back and as a false 9 for liverpool as well
Yeah but Paul Gallagher even plays in net
Now he just needs to play GK
Well he is a kind of player that suits every team's needs.This guy can play anywhere.
I think I see the one position he should be played at next.
Amateuris, i played all positions at my home "town" club...
He didn’t play goalie?!
Should've done one for the very versatile Wayne Hennesey. Goalkeeper and right-winger.
Such a class player.
I know Newcaastle fans say he didn't work hard but he does that for us & he's so technically good on the ball. Intelligent, versatile & hard working.
Love the guy, never thought he'd be this good at his current role. Thought he was more attack minded when he came in but he's excellent at giving us that option for a pass & moving the ball quick.
This even beats Ashley Young
He's a keeper
When I first saw this post, my half-asleep self thought that "Duizendpoot" was Dutch for Georginio.
I remember him from Football Manager - he was amazing
damn kid cudi is a beast
The Dutch Sergi Roberto
I love how they included his youth squad positions to fatten up his resume, like those mean anything.
DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH
SwissDutch Army Man.
Played also as number 9 for us against Barcelona at Nou Camp.
He played striker for Liverpool v Barca 1st leg
definition of 'jack of all trades, master of none'
Decent player but did fuck all last year. It was all VVD. - Liverpool fans
That damn Gini smile! Fondly remember that one season for us in which he had like 8-9 goals with his head. Loved him as a captain as well, did loads of stuff for local kids.
I like this.
I anticipate a lot of grognards hating this, but I think it's a pretty decent way to introduce something new. It's limited in scope and it also helps refs protect themselves.
oh it is real, I really like the idea tbh, will iron out bad behaviour from young and it's clear about how it will work
Here's a detailed page on the FA's website about it for those interested.
"Sarcastically clapping a decision"
All the banter's gone out of football smh
So is this basically the same concept as the Penalty Box in hockey?
I hope it stays in grass-roots football.
This is an incredible move from the FA. I truly hope this is a successful move and expands everywhere.
I also really hope that this applies for diving someday... looking at you, Neymar.
What does grassroot mean?
This can't be real
Sarcastic clapping gets a 10 minute penalty. Damn. From what I can see none of this is for violent or dangerous behaviour, just to enforce something to protect the feelings of the ref.
Hope it stays there and dies.
Have they never seen Jessica Jones?
Do they expect players to be robots? Football is an emotional sport. This will take all heart out of it
Say goodbye to the relative free speech the UK once had. Wooooo lefties.
Aye we know
Time for Belgium to finally win something.
Said it before but both international and club coefficient rankings are complete bullshit
Guaooooo where’s Germany
World Cup should be worth 1,000,000 points...so France should be #1.
Imagine how high Belgium will be when they start playing Origi
It’s still crazy to me that Belgium are #1 after winning fuck all
Yay Switzerland finally out
How the fuck are we above Spain & Portugal, lmao.
Portugal should be higher considering they won the nation's league.
Portugal won the nations league how have they gone down
Why is Gareth Southgate on here. Shouldn't it be Roberto Martinez?
Cheers FIFA, I guess
Crazy to not see Germany in the top 10.
ITT: People not realising this is an ELO system and no human thought goes in to it. There is no "______ should be here/have risen" etc etc. They can't pick and choose which teams go where
Spain looks like it has left its Glory days behind.
I started watching football because of '08-'12 Spain.I hope we would reach out peak levels once again.There's talent, but something's just not clicking.
Back in top 10, feels good man
Really it's just which team is most consistently good in the right tournaments over X number of years more than which team is best.
Netherlands? Should be top 10 after nations league performances
Finally Brazil on #2. In my opinion, Belgium and Brazil have been the two best-playing nations since at least the world cup. I'd put Brazil on #1 though.
Belgium number one? Why? What did they do? Surely france should be number one.