Is China in there?
What about Bernie?
What about Denmark?
Doesn’t Bernie want us to be more like capitalist Denmark?
I get what they are saying, that those governments didn't live up to socialist/communist teachings, that they were really just dictatorships being called communism.
I have no doubt that there will be those claiming to be libertarian to gain political steam and power. Every political group thinks they are right and that they could never be deceived. They will even point out how other parties are being duped.
That being said, I don't know how communism could work, someone will always try to take advantage and grab power.
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You know, if we discussed ideas rather than labels, maybe we could get a long and work together to fight the cult of the omnipotent state #BottomUnity
I still haven't exactly seen anyone say "That wasn't real socialism" but hey keep knocking down that straw man
Oh oh I just read up on the policies and constitution of the Ba'athist government of Iraq yesterday (basically Saddam era). They couldn't catch him either.
name an instance of real capitalism
Cambodia got the closest in the picture. That seems about right.
Someone doesn't understand outrage marketing
I like this option a lot better than giving the right to forcefully inject drugs to the same entity that experimented with LSD mind control on unsuspecting victims I project MK Ultra, infected people with syphilis to study it's effects in the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, gave 10000 people methanol poisoning with an unannounced change to alcohol denaturing during prohibition, and god knows what else they did without getting caught.
Yeah, except that the medical system is cartelized causing competition and alternative options to be severely curtailed.
this is the happiest I have ever been about markets killing people, market eugenics is best eugenics.
If you're a fiscal conservative then you have virtually no representation in congress
Fiscal conservative but you're voting Republican??
Former Gawker site. How is this new?
Also it's a SPORTS site talking about politics, ofc, because it's still got that shit about it everyone loved about gawker.
If you prefer not outing yourself as a buffoon, I suggest you take their advice.
A response to the idea that “The Stigma Against My Conservative Politics Is Worse Than The Stigma Of Being Gay.”
It's almost like conservatives throws everyone that shows them solidarity under the bus
Is this a real headline? Can you give a link? That's fucking ridiculous. I cannot believe that blatant homophobia
The do the same thing to blacks who suffer from different think.
That looks more like a .357 to me.
Wilderness guide here. I constantly get flak in the outdoor community for carrying. In the middle of the wild. With bears and cougars and coyotes. No one is safe from the regressives.
Rudolph the problematic reindeer.
I've already raped dozens of time this month after exposure to "Baby Its Cold Outside," now I feel compelled to shoot people. Sad.
Open carry?? *screams in Reagan*
Stop it, the regressives are already upset enough about the movie
When I was a kid, I'm pretty sure I saw a version where he fires his gun. So "they" didn't ban it, but they did censor it
.45 revolver seemed weird to me for some reason, but apparently colt .45s were super common
They already took out the rifles from ET and replaced them with flashlights. Because that’s how police run a manhunt in broad daylight. With flashlights.
I don't want the movie banned. I don't think it's a good idea for parents to show their children, because that Santa is a xenophobe.
The Tin Man was pistol packing too in the Wizard of Oz.
.45?? You had so many calibers to choose and you choose the one skeptical one lol
It is really scary how people are slowly being conditioned to accept censorship of speech and thought.
You ever come across a Bumble? Need heat.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that's Bill's biggest lie
I think this is a problem with libertarianism. We often think we are so smart for noticing the problems with the left and the right that we come off as being condescending and dismissive of the political Identity of most people. Libertarianism is not and should not be anti Republican, Democrat, politician, or main stream. We got to be better about finding common ground.
I know, I know... Maybe I am missing the point of this post. I just think we could be better.
To be fair Bush Jr was told there were weapons of mass destruction by his intelligence agencies right? Or am I making that up?
Not a pants on fire lie it says the information was not reliable and they didnt know if he had resumed production. So... they didnt know they only knew at one time he had WMDs it also says they didnt know if the WMDs had any connection with Al Queda or not. So he went in on very little info.
Who’s 16yrs old and shitposts on r/Libertarian?
Nixon and Clinton both straight up knew they were lying.
Bush Jr. was parroting what he had been told by people he thought he could trust to give him good intel.
Bush Sr. and Obama were making well-intentioned but reckless statements. Bush should have known that he can't single-handedly make tax policy, and Obama should have known that the ACA didn't require insurance companies to keep doctors with their patients.
Trump just spits out whatever he thinks people want to hear, with no concept of or care for whether there is any truth to it or not.
Lol @ Bill Clinton's biggest lie being about sex when the rest are series issues.
WHAT?!? Politicians are liars? Who would’ve ever thought?
This sub man, it loves pretending that all it’s doing is bringing a third alternative but all they do is muddle the waters with the false notion that both Democrats and Republicans are exactly the same . Yes they all lied, being the president of the most powerful country in the world involves lies, but there are lies and there are lies and there’s lying and there’s lying ALL the time.
There’s no one on this list that lied as often and with such wide ranging effects as Richard Nixon and unless every single allegation against Trump is proven true Dick will remain top lying dog for decades to come. The watergate scandal, the White House tapes, the pentagon papers all revealed a presidency that was unhinged and unmatched on the level of illegal activity it was hiding from the public. Nixon kept us in the Vietnam War by sabotaging peace talks in order to win an election, once president he kept a in the war a few years longer even though he knew it was not winnable, hell, he was even calling the press the enemy of the people before it was cool. And since he was pardoned we only began to get a glimpse of the surface of the level of corruption in the Nixon White House.
Then there’s GW Bush who even though didn’t lie as often as good old Dick had lied that had about as wide effect. Bush somehow got America to link Saddam Hussein to 9/11 without having to specifically say it. Bush got us into two war we are still fighting 15 years later with trillions of dollars worth of tax payer money wasted and Bush lied about the war crimes committed at Guantanamo and about US forces torturing detainees. We are still reeling from the effects Dubya had on America’s reputation and on America’s bank accounts but sure he is just one liar among many.
As you mentioned there’s also Trump, who averages 6 misleading statements per day in office( thats no exaggeration ) in my lifetime I’ve never seen a politician that so blatantly wields not only false information but information that could easily be proven false. The fact that of all the lies Mr. Trump has uttered OP chose an unkept promise just shows you where he is coming from. Apparently Trump’s biggest lie isn’t saying 6 million illegal immigrants voted and undermining democracy, it isn’t saying the press is the enemy of the people, it isn’t lying about firing Comey over the Russian Collusion investigation, it isn’t saying Mueller’s investigation is run by an ever changing number of “angry democrats” ( sometimes 12, 18, 17 or whatever he comes up with), it isn’t lying about paying off a pornstar, it isn’t lying about his Zero tolerance policy that created the family separation debacle, it isn’t calling the caravan a public safety issue worthy of political stunt at over $250 million tab for the American tax payer, it isn’t denying that thousands died due to the hurricane in Puerto Rico and holy fuck can I keep going. His biggest lie is not building the wall.
But sure these three men are comparable to lying about a blowjob and selling you a healthcare law.
Edit: just realized I responded to the post and not one of the comments that’s why one of the paragraphs starts with “as you said”.
I'm pretty sure Trump should be quoted for being so pro2A then proceeded to say"Take the guns first, due process second".
I think the biggest lie of all (bigger than any of these) is the mods of this sub claiming to be libertarians
They've all told lies, but Trump tells more and bigger lies every single week than any of the others did in any single year. We can recognize that they are all liars and crooks without pretending that they are all the same level of crook.
“I did not have sex with that woman”-Bill Clinton talking honesty about Hilary Clinton
Didn't Mexico just pledge 50 billion to stop migrants?
Bush, by far. Led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands.
3/6 have their lips closed atleast.
That depends on what the definition of “is” is.
G. All of the above.
Most expensive lie was "iraq has weapons of mass destruction". Followed closely by "you can keep your insurance".
W killed the most people with his lies.
The answerrr would be 'yes' <3
We are blaming Obama for private insurance companies not continuing their insurance plans.....
Which one has cost us trillions of dollars and resulted in hundreds of thousands of people being killed?
Its okay though, we have to pretend these Democrats with their blowjobs and health insurance is the same as our beloved Republicans. If we can't keep us this false equivalency, people may not find it so easy to keep voting Republican
Gonna go with bush 2
How us this "libertarian"? Just because it's anti Democrat/Republican doesn't make it libertarian. This is just more Russian propaganda.
I'd have to say Trump.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't look up any statistics, but seeing as he's the tallest of the bunch and he seems pretty big even for his hight, I'm going to have to say Trump is the biggest one.
Based purely on these lines? GWB. By far. His administration knew the intel was false, and they used it to justify going to war. Even if W didn’t personally know it was a lie, he put the people in charge who did know.
Second was probably Trump. Trump was just saying what he thought his base wanted to hear, with no intention to follow through with it. Even now he doesn’t even acknowledge that he ever said Mexico would pay for the wall.
Third is Nixon. The most favorable interpretation of his lie is that he thought he was technically correct, but he knew that he committed crimes. He just thought that, as president, it wasn’t illegal. But he still knew damn well that he did what he was accused of doing.
Clinton is next, as it’s the only one that’s still a lie that’s left. Even though it’s over nothing, and was the result of him lying about other stuff, this particular lie was that big of a deal, IMO, and I’m kinda shocked it’s what got him impeached.
Obama/HW aren’t really lies. Their intent was certainly there but reality just didn’t play out like they thought it would. I’d call it an unfulfilled promise (and stupid ones to make, to be sure) before I’d call them lies.
this post is misleading. the answer is all of them
Bill, that's factually incorrect.
The fourth one: 250,000 people died.
Cant find one for Reagan, huh?
Where's Reagan? That's a weird break in chronology.
The System. The System is the biggest liar.
Clinton and Obama seem to be fairly thin. Bush Jr rides his bike out near me, and is pretty healthy.
Trump and Nixon could lose a few pounds...
Why did you skip Reagan’s Contra speech?
Muh both sides are bad
W made the most damaging mistake out of all of them. But it wasn’t a lie. He was provided with intelligence that Iraq had WMD and he believed it. Was that intelligence puffed up and unreliable? Turns out it was. But it actually existed.
"/r/Libertarian is better with the new rules"
I think I win.
Now can we talk about the harm caused by those lies?
"Iraq has weapons of mass destruction." Between 200,000 and 500,000 people lost their lives in the botched occupation following a successful invasion. ISIS was born out of the chaos and eventually took over most of northern Iraq and eastern Syria where tens of thousands more have died, instituting a medieval death cult theocracy complete with female sex slaves, public mass executions etc., and they remain one of the world's deadliest terrorist threats to this day.
"I'm not a crook." Nixon directly participated in an effort to obstruct justice for a felony that was in all likelihood directed by him in the first place, demonstrating utter contempt for the rule of law in the nation he was elected to lead.
"I'll have Mexico pay for the wall." The lie itself is a symbol of everything despicable about Trump -- the divisive racism and xenophobia, the complete incompetence and ignorance of the rule of law, foreign policy, federal budgeting, national security etc. He has harmed the well-being of millions of Americans.
"I did not have sex with that woman." Perjury demonstrating contempt for the rule of law. However it was a lie told in order to protect himself and his adulterous lover from exposure, not honorable but not exactly the most heinous of motives.
"Read my lips, no new taxes." / "You can keep your doctor." Probably not even lies but political promises made in an effort to garner support for legislation each President sincerely believed would benefit most Americans. Promises we remember today mostly because they were turned into political weapons by each President's opponents. Evaluation: no biggie.
It would appear that not all lies are the same.
I kept my same insurance.
In retrospect bill Clinton's seemed kinda harmless
In terms of national security id say W. But Nixon and Clinton are the most embarrassing.
Lying is intentional deception. Bush Sr. had every intention of not passing new taxes and found that impossible. Bush Jr. was correct. There were chemical weapons in Iraq. But I think Obama's and Trump's lies were the most bald faced. They both knew damned well there was no chance that what they were saying was true and said it solely to gain support for a policy. Nixon and Clinton were just lying to protect themselves after they were caught.
"Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" is the most serious of these lies, IMO. One can't be so easily allowed to start a mass murder on a blatant lie. And worse, not be punished after the lie is revealed.
Nixon didn't actually do the break in himself so there is a shred of truth there, assuming that you view this comment in the context of Watergate. All politicians are crooks to some extent.
Bush 41 didn't intend to raise taxes from my understanding but felt forced to sign off on a tax increase once he got into office saw the budget options.
Clinton straight up lied but the transgression itself wasn't a huge deal all things considered (I feel the same about Watergate to be honest)
Bush 43, I don't think he was technically lying because that implies intentionally saying something you believe to be false. I think he believed what he said to be true.
Same thing for Obama, I think he believed what he said when he said it.
Trump, well I don't think Trump is capable of lying because as I said lying is the act of staying something that you know to be untrue. I think Trump is so far up his own ass that he believes that just the act of him saying something means it will come true. He could say something truly absurd like "Under my presidency America will fully colonize Mars" and while it certainly would be ridiculous, it wouldn't be a lie because he believes his own bullshit.
I'd have to say the most flagrant lie would be Clinton. I mean he obviously knew that his statement and reality were complete opposites. But the biggest liar overall has to be Nixon because he obviously was involved, he intentionally misled the country, and his dishonesty was more egregious than Clinton trying to cover up an affair.
Considering that trump lies literally every time he speaks in public I don’t think this is really a fair contest
45 clearly. daily. every time he opens his mouth.
This meme is out of date. Trump’s biggest lie is now “NO COLLUSION!”
The 2 Bushes and Obama believed their statements and were not intentionally lying. Situations and bad information/lack of information turned the statements false not intent.
Nixon and Clinton were both already in impeachment proceedings when they made their statements to try to save themselves. Nixon knew he was in trouble if the Supreme Court would force the release of his recorded conversations in the White House. Clinton was using a loophole on the definition of sex and was purposely vague. So both liars, one about cover up of illegal activities and one about personal activities.
Trump lies constantly. It is hard to determine if he really thinks he is telling the truth and just ignorant. Or if he's just straight up lying to help himself and his position on issues.
Nixon is never given enough credit.
If you mean sheer numbers, Trump trumps (sorry) all of them. It's actually kind of amazing how many lies he tells, virtually daily, often many times a day. No one even comes close, by an order of magnitude, maybe several. Dubya is second, but even his lies about Iraq seem quaint now.
W lied about a fact that at the time he might have thought was actually true. So, I am not sure if that was a lie. Nixon did not think he was a crook. Obama, Trump, and HW all thought they could follow through on ridiculous ideas. Bill Clinton is actually the only one that lied about something he knew at the time to be not true.
I appreciate the meme, but it’s Trump. Trump is the biggest liar, and it’s not close.
Lol what's this with Trump?
Iraq did actually have chemical weapons, they just took awhile to find as they were literally buried, this was just buried by the news cycle cuz it didn't fit the post-bush bashing theme.
Maybe go with a different quote there
If the Mexico trade deficit is improved via the latest trade deal, it could very well be “paid for”.
Well, technically Nixon didnt "steal" anything so....I guess he wasn't as big of a liar as the rest?
Hmmm let me think.
I only lie if I have to....and I had to. (Every politician ever)
This would be better if all six were policy. Like “I did not privatize Sally Mae and sell out college students” for Bill.
Well most of those are campaign promises but Clinton was actual perjury so...
TIL Jimmy Carter never lied
The answer must be Reagan, if we're flat-out ignoring his lies.
Is it a lie if they believe it when they say it?
Where is Reagan?
Shouldn't it be "Who had the biggest lie?" A big liar is based on both the magnitude of a lie and how often the person lies.
The biggest liar is definitely my ex girlfriend.
It's still Bill Clinton.
Where’s Carter saying “I know what’s going on!”?
Clinton or Obama. Both of them knew they were lying when they said it.
I’d venture that George senior was the worst. Coming from the CIA, his profession was built around the ability to lie. Combine that with less free information (internet wasn’t that great yet) to dispute the things he said and you’ve got a winner.
Humans are the biggest liars
HW Bush was faced with a aggressively growing deficit. I dont like taxes any more than the next person here, but at least he cut programs and raised taxes to address our debt.
That's more than near anyone else can say on this list.
I still have my insurance though...
Clinton or Nixon.
And I actually like them both as presidents, preferably for free trade and neoliberal privatization.
Trump doesn't count though because his lies are always easy to read. He's just a compulsive BS, and we should expect that most of what he says is horseshit haha
I think the Public would view Nixon and HW as the biggest lie. HW was following the most popular president in a long time. The president he followed gain tons of followers due to his low tax philosophy. HW only had to continue that and he didn't. The voters showed him exactly that when they didn't give him a second term.
I think the public remembers Clinton's most, but it wasn't political thus it wasn't as big of deal. Obama's was the biggest but his charisma and race had a big part in him being relected.
Reality can often be disappointing
A better question is which lie killed more people.
Which lie cost us the most American lives?
Probably Dubya. I mean I hate Obama with a passion now (was once a crazy liberal supportet of his), but Dubya really opened a can of worms by destabilizing Iraq. I get that tensions were high after 9-11 but he really should have not invaded a country based on “intelligence” alone.
Why is Jimmy Carter in this picture?
Sick Willie lied bc it came naturally. He's one of those people you meet, everything that comes out of their mouths is bs
Obama lied bc he believed the lie ie he is retarded.
I have no idea how Nixon was considered a republican. He did order his men to break and enter. Was he a crook for that? Dunno
Bush the Elder was a moderate republican. He didn't mind tax hikes. When the dems put a little pressure on him, he caved. Weakling is more accurate than lier.
With Bush the Younger, every single person in Washington believed Hussein (Saddam, not Barrack) had WMD's, so it was not a lie
With Trump, we'll see whether Mexico pays for the wall. How can you say that's a lie? Trump has been good on his word for everything else. Patience!
I think Bush's had the biggest impact on the world.
I was able to keep my insurance....
That's really the lie you picked for Trump?
I would have to say number all of them.
I mean your insurance is fine so we can start there...
All of them
W. W is the biggest liar. Trump may tell the most lies, but W told the biggest lie.
What is Aleppo?
In terms of the significance of the lies, it's definitely the Bushes. No contest.
I thought we couldn’t criticize Bush anymore?
Initially thought this appeared under r/news and was super impressed at how evenly the blame is shared across the parties.
Then saw it was r/libertarian and remembered no news outlet or mainstream anything would ever create such a balanced meme.
Thank you OP for keepin’ it real.
Trump is 6ft3 sooooooo nixon
It’s a tie between all of them
I don’t hate the guy, but gotta be George W.
Well Nixon's main crime was ordering a coverup, not the initial break in.
George 41 knew he was going to get reamed by voting for tax increases, but did so out of principle. His mistake was campaigning on an inflexible position.
Bill definitely did have sex with that woman, and splitting hairs over whether or not oral sex was sex did not fly with the public.
GWB was somewhat vindicated. Hussein had repurposed chem and bio production into other areas, keeping on hand the brain power to restart the process. Anticipated time to restart was 3months for bio, 6 months for chem. Dems fixated on nuclear and completely ignored how chemical weapons not only were a cornerstone of Iraqi defense (kept them alive in the Iran/Iraq war), but also Hussein used it to control and mass murder his own population.
Obama likely knew his health care takeover would run up costs, but sold it as savings.
Trump's mistake was similar to George 41 with inflexible campaign rhetoric. If he shuts down the border due to invasions, odds are Mexico will pay in lost commerce.
Nixon on leaving the Gold Standard: "Your Dollar Will be worth as much tomorrow as today."
This is the biggest lie, gold was $35 an ounce back then
Iraq "had" he just wasn't precise on when.
All of them.
Nixon and Clinton, as they were blatant lies rather than misdirection or ignorance.
They are all liars and criminals but some of them are better at P.R.
They all also had foreign policies that destroyed lives and liberties both foreign and domestic.
More like r/libertarian “don’t worry this is a haven for free speech”
If Trump’s wall costs less than maintaining illegal Mexicans in the US, Mexico would technically be paying for it.
Bush's lies about Iraq led to between several hundred thousand and several million deaths (depends how you count/attribute). That's leaving aside his lies about 9/11 and various domestic policies. It shouldn't be a question as to which of those 6 is the biggest liar.
Trump- “I had no contact with Russia”
Trump is a pathological liar who couldn't find a coherent sentence with two flashlights
well, to be fair and according to history; about 1/3 of what the United state of America is now used to be Mexico.
Hard to choose who was the worst. Bush or Trump.
I did in fact keep my non-government health insurance, maybe some people didnt but not everyone was lied to in that case. On the other hand 100% of people where affected by tax hikes, so I'd say bush...or if we go by severity (cost in lives, etc) of lie bush 2 ... either way its a bush. Nixon's lie while bad didn't really cost any lives, I don't think Clinton's lie affected anyone other then he fake outrage right like Newt who is on what his 3rd wife now?
So yeah, bushes' for sure. Either that or "No collusion" for trump but we've yet to see that house of cards fall so if mexico paying for the wall does end up being his lie its not will going to have major consequences. Although if we go by number of lies, not counting quality trump wins by a mile, he lies so much washinton post made a lie rating level JUST FOR HIM (so far just him anyway).
Trump is the biggest liar, but I think he actually believes everything that comes out of his mouth and isn’t consciously lying.
Gonna have to say Nixon Clinton GWB and Obama. Obama saying if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Then I lost my coverage and my premiums skyrocketed. It’s awesome when the president personally affects your life. Bush equally as guilty put us into a war where friends and families fought and died in place we should not have been in. Any president that tells a lie that personally affects you is the worst.
What? No Reagan?
One of these is not like the others.
Trump, by an order of magnitude.
Trump is clearly the biggest liar. I actually think Bush lied the least, I just think he was lied to and/or kept in the dark.
The fucking wall??? That's what lie they decided to use! Trump is by far the biggest lying lowlife America has ever had. There's a reason why him becoming president was considered a joke before America (Russia) decided to turn they're country into the joke.
George Bush’s wasn’t really a lie
Ya'll do know that we did find WMDs in Iraq right?
I don’t think trump supporters really care WHO pays for the wall, But really just care that it’s built.
Let's rank the lies in order of how negatively they effected America:
GWB: His lie cost the lives of 100's of thousands of people. He's a war criminal. Screw him.
Clinton: He used his power to have sexual relations with a subordinate and then went out of his way to destroy her, then he lied under oath. Screw him.
Obama: His lie screwed over a lot of people and only made the already crappy economics of the medical industry worse. I know he is one of he God's of most Redditors, but screw him.
Nixon. He was not only a crook, he was a fool. The Watergate break in was totally unncessary, and it caused huge inconvenience to the country. Screw him.
GHWB. He caved to the democrats on taxes. He was a fool.
Trump (before Reddit loses their minds, I did NOT vote for Trump): His lie was the usual innocuous lie that politicians tell. No one was hurt by his lie.
Literally nobody actually cares if Mexico pays for the wall, we just want the damn thing built.
Either Bush or Obama. Both pretty big fucking lies.
Yea Trump may have lied about the payment of the wall but compared to the others at least the outcome of his act is having a positive outcome of the people. The rest lied at the cost of the people against the people. Not that i support Trump but could probably have picked a better statement.
So far bush had the biggest lie. Next would be obama. Trump has a few more years to secure his third place spot.
Biggest liar ... libtards.
5 war criminals and the guy that made our money worthless
I think GWB genuinely thought Iraq was a serious threat.
Obama's should read "marriage is between a man and woman".
And the tests are in , and they prove that , that was indeed a lie .And because of it the entire fucking world doesn't even know the difference between and a man and woman any more.
Inb4 the Bernietarians that invade this sub defend Obama.
Nixon - liar
Bush the elder - broken promise not a lie
Clinton - liar but not about presidential actions.
Bush the younger - duped by bad intelligence - wrong but not a liar.
Obama - liar
Trump - I never was under the impression that Mexico would pay for the wall up front. A reimbursement was always implied. Two more years to go to see if this was a broken promise or not. Not a lie.
It's Trump by a long shot.
Obama. Definately Obama.
Why are Carter and Reagan missing?
They also have much higher standards for getting a driver's license
I understand what this is getting at, but "Germany has no speed limit 67% of its highway system the Autobahn." is not a real sentence.
They also build their roads properly. It cost more upfront, but saves loads in the long term.
I am a big fan of no speed limits but maybe regarding the statistics, typically the expectation would be that speed limits are imposed in Germany on sections of the Autobahn that are too dangerous to be limitless and accordingly the likelyhood of accident is also higher on these sections of the road so maybe it is not the best statistic to point out.
All stretches of the Autobahn have an advisory speed limit in place. 67% of it doesn't have a statutory speed limit.
Germany will replace a section of a road to replace a pothole or even an imperfection in the road on the Autobauhn. They also pave nearly 17" of asphalt compared to the US where we get "the absolute minimum to prevent an issue for 1-3 years". They also have much higher standards for driving and the tickets scale with your income so Mr. Hedgefund can't be a dick and get off paying minuscule fees.
Germany is tougher on tailgating, which is the cause of many accidents in the US. And both the cause and effect of road rage.
They also probably have much higher standards on grammar, and sentence syntax..
My dumbass city set up red light cameras all over the place under the guise of increased safety and totally not a cash grab and they increased accidents in those intersections by an average of 19%. The one thing that made the intersection way safer was by accident and they added countdown timers to the crosswalk, so when you're driving, you know when the light is about to turn red. Again, completely by accident and somehow it took them like 80 years to come up with a more advanced system than a 4 second amber light
If I remember correctly I think in England there was an incident in a town where all the traffic lights went out and traffic actually flowed more smoothly until it was fixed. I’m not even sure if the story is true or not or if I’m even remembering the details correctly
Those numbers are from 2008.It were around 40% in the year 2013.
Even fewer now and they are getting fewer and fewer.People are okay with this and most people want tempo limits everywhere.
Soon this freedom will be gone completely.
While i appreciate the sentiment, agreeing to not hit eachother on the roadway is a bit of an extrapolation towards personal freedom and liberty. The anology makes sense, but the scale and specific example is a bit odd. its like saying "humans have free will because we can choose between our favorite soda drinks." Its not wrong, just very strange. I imagine r/CTR or r/LSC are gonna meme this pretty hard and i dont even blame them lol
This isn't exactly applicable since Germany has very strict driving rules, and are very strict on what it takes to get a license.
What do speed limits have to do with libertarianism? If roads were privatized, the owners could decide themselves what speed limits they want to put on them. It is not a basic right to be able to drive whatever speed you want if you do not own the ground you are on. However on your own property no one can tell you to slow down. I am from Germany and imo this pic has nothing to do with this subreddit.
Haha! This is cute. Driving continuoisly in the passing lane is punishable. Same with not stopping to help others. There are a ton of restrictions when it comes to driving in Germany. It also takes about a year and 3,000 euros to get a license, the test isn't easy either.
Wow, using an anecdote to prove a point. And using circumstantial evidence.
That is because the sections that have a speed limit are precisely the ones where more accidents would occur if there wasn't a speed limit (because of torn asphalt, sharp turns, wildlife crossing etc.). The limits that are in place do actually reduce accidents. This is a classic case of confirmation bias. Source: am German
I have no problem with eliminating speed limits on interstate highways but if you get in an accident and dont have insurance don't expect us to pay for you
It helps when people don’t act like fucking Superman because they are SPESHUL Americans who are better than everything because=American.
It’s not just about the legal system. It’s about the people and an unearned sense of entitlement.
Just high taxes for road users to maintain pristine driving conditions as well as much more regulated licensing and registration schemes that weed out shitty cars and shitty drivers. This isn’t some magic libertarian wet dream, it is a highly regulated and limited system.
They tried to make an "American Autobahn" in Montana or some other empty state. They had to resend the lack of speed limit due to so many horrendous accidents because people were driving too fast to handle their vehicles. Germany has much more stringent requirements on their drivers licenses and evidently more self control.
Edit: I looked it up not really due wholly to accidents more so politics.
I can tell you as an American that went to Germany for 3 weeks of work and drove around the whole country, that driving there is amazing. Everyone knows what they fuck they are doing. Allowing the left lane for passing only and the right lane for merging. It is glorious.
bundesautobahn literally means FEDERAL motor-way
the interstate system is a creation of the government
le epic dominoes pothole meme
why do libertarians focus on such ridiculous things
No one going to point out these are highly regulated for safety, they are designed for crashing. Imagine having up or already expensive highways to add many more miles so you can speed.
I personally wouldn't mind, but with the general opinion on roads here, no one is taking about the regulations or cost.
Who built the autobahn? The free market?
It's not like anyone follows the speed limit anyways.
Well unless a cop is near.
Yep, now check fines for following :Driving slow in left lineNot using turn signalsPassing on right might get you in jailDriving on almost empty gas tankand many more GOVERNMENT enforced laws that make your crappy statement possible
LOL this is such a terrible example of the potential fruit of Libertarian ideals Isn’t Germany further on the regulatory side than the U.S in several ways? (Including driving regulation and infrastructure)
For some reason people keep posting extremely flawed arguments the libertarianism on this sub..
The lack of logic and rational thought in this meme is the best argument against its own message.
This is ridiculous. It’s known that speed limits don’t affect the crash rate- they affect the chance of dying in a crash. So the argument should be whether or not speed limits affect your chance of dying in a crash not getting into a crash. At least in the US it appears that they do save lives.
I think they also have higher standards for drivers licenses...
Social pressure is another way to restrict behavior.
If I recall correctly, speed limits were imposed for the purpose of increasing gas mileage during times of gas rationing. Now they're imposed as a financial resource(not in all cases, but generally speaking).
The higher the speed a crash takes place at, the more likely injury or death is caused.
American high-ways, in their current condition can't hold a candle against German Autobahn. Its not only about having a fast car, maximum slope and how corners are layout are specified, there is a lot of "engineering" involved. And the drivers are also disciplined. A few "unwritten rules":
Texas doesn’t have speed limits either, only speed suggestions, there’s never any cops around to fuck with you on the high ways. Very common to see people racing at 110+, I agree this should also be an option for people dumb enough to follow the signs too though
The level of carnage no speed limits in the USA would produce would be ridiculous. I don't trust half these fuckers driving the speed limit.
This post is so libertarian it doesn’t even adhere to grammatical regulation.
One thing germany gets right.
There’s basically no speed limit on nyc highways. I drive as fast as I want (responsibly, when there’s no traffic) and I’ve never been pulled over.
Yeah but have you seen how the majority of Americans drive?
If it weren’t for the cock suckers who go slow in the fast lane this might work in the states but too bad we will never have that
Number one rule my dad always taught me when driving: Always assume that everyone else around you are idiots
You're making the assumption that Americans are responsible drivers. I'd rather drive in Germany any day of the week than drive down the street in my state. People here cant drive worth a shit as is.
Germany is also totally screwed
Ich liebe wirklich die Deutsche, insbesondere die Bayerische. Sie sind toll leute. Grüss Gott aus Irland!
Except that those roads are safe because government properly maintains them. As opposed to the U.S where the roads are kept like shiiiiiiiiyaaaaat
Facts are facts, but I don't think this is a representative example. I mean, people might be good drivers but if there weren't laws for a lot of crimes that are already rife then it would be a shit show.
Don’t those Bavarian bastards know how much money they leave on the table by not pulling people over, searching their cars and taking their stuff? And How are they going to pay for the latest SWAT tanks and paramilitary toys in order to catch the really big fish, people growing Mary J Juanna?!?
To be fair, this might be the only thing in Germany that is not heavily regulated.
Can we really blindly trust the “general” American with no speed limit? We tend to be a fairly incompetent group of folks these days...
But only if you have a responsible citizenry.
German here: we have a lot of speed limits at dangerous parts of the roads because people act irresponsible and would otherwise kill themself
If you ever lived in Germany you would know this level of personal responsibility is the result of extreme, bureaucratic social control and judgment.
When did these idiot anarchists decide to invade the libertarians? Not all government regulations are bad. We need speed limits, post offices, libraries, etc. it’s called a society. I don’t want to privatize everything. Shit when I lived in Florida the private highways were expensive as hell, like $3.00 every 7-10 miles and the public highways were ass. You end up paying more for the private highways than you do with your taxes. Don’t get me wrong though I don’t think cops should be pulling people over and giving tickets for going 5-10 mph over the limit.
Except Germany has pretty stringent REGULATION on who gets a drivers license, which you failed mention. If you get in trouble there are more regulations that impose fines and loss of license. You literally have to be a very good driver to be eligible to drive on the Autobahn so you’re skewing the numbers pretty significantly in terms of looking through a Libertarian set of rose colored glasses.
You would be better to look at a country like India, where they do have laws on the books about driving, they’re rarely enforced.
Who the hell keeps posting these retarded memes?
You can't use German road ways as evidence for all other situations. The environment comes to mind
Increased speed limits have the potential to increase the severity of an accident as the kinetic energy is a quadratic function of speed. For example, doubling your speed will quadruple the energy dissipated in an accident if you measure from full motion to a complete stop. Thus there is a reasonable limit to speed. The roads are designed for specific speeds also with factors such as line of sight, side friction on the tire, and differential in traffic speeds due to accesses. You're safest travelling at the posted speed if everyone else is also travelling at about those speeds. Also, the US and Germany aren't all that different from each other. Higher speeds in the US haven't resulted in increased accidents. I'm against enforcing speeding limits actively, but am a huge fan of having them posted as a guideline to the travelling public for what the road has been designed for.
Will never work here because too many Americans drive slow in the passing lane. Traffic can back up for miles, but they have their cruise control on, and are oblivious. Other drivers try to do crazy stuff to get past them too, but they just continue their function of impeding the flow of traffic.
Lets use one of the best examples of government funded ventures as an argument against government.
That's you right now. If it sounds retarded, it's because it is.
Tell that to the victims of the triangle shirtwaist fire.
yea but the roads in the US are so bad and if i go too fast i'm guaranteed to skid and die
I think this is a good example of how laws should be written they have very strict licensing for both getting a driver's license and having a quality road going vehicle. You are allowed to go unreasonable speeds but if you cause an accident that unreasonable speeds your insurance does not cover that accident you are personally liable for any damages including hitting signs whilst getting off the road. You are not required to have snow tires but if you cause an accident or havr a single-car wreck without them your insurance will not pay for damages including damages to the roadway. Reference I lived in Germany for 3 years I really like their ideas about driving some of the other stuff kind of sucks.
Yes. Good to know your basis of both fiscal and social policy is based off people driving the same speed. What an intellectual
There are other reasons for speed limits- exits, entrances, environmental hazard, road degradation, noise issues
Maybe they're still a good idea in school zones, just saying.
Right, that's why Tragedy of the Commons isn't a thing /s
This is why policy should be evidence driven, meaning it shouldn’t be arbitrary. Obviously you have to have some policy in government but it would be so much more effective if you follow the data
I don't think libertarians should be going after deregulating traffic laws. There's bigger fish to fry, and also fish where it's not potentially dangerous to experiment with.
Why would they yield fewer accidents? Those areas have higher congestion and/or more dangerous conditions (turns and such).
Fixed: Sometimes human cooperation and personal responsibility don't require government mandate.
I don't want to live in a community where the government doesn't enforce property rights or protect its citizens from harming one another.
Sure, sure. Just like the lack of government regulation on grammar has no negative effect./s
There are still traffic laws though, and they have to get their drivers license anyways, so this doesn't make any sense
every other part of german society is regulated or controlled by the goverment, its crazy here!
Tedd Bundy was discovered in a simple traffic stop.
Or it could be that these regulations prevented an increase in accidents in these areas, and that the rest of the autobahn remains unregulated because it naturally has an acceptable level of accidents.
That's how a mixed economy works: Let it try and regulate itself but let outside influence help in the areas where it can't
"Human cooperation and personal responsibility don't require government mandate". Hahahaha this guy has never freeway'd in Southern California
They also need a lot more practice and learning before they can get their license. That helps
Turns out sheer will to live and innate respect for your fellow human being is much, MUCH more powerful in shaping your actions than government-imposed regulation. Weird.
Please, as if libertarians want to be in a country where the government builds the roads.
Just thinking but wouldn’t the lower speed ones be in high risk areas
Germany has a general culture of rapport and understanding that we as Americans often lack. The unfortunateness of the 1930s-1940s notwithstanding, they're generally a pretty regimented and communal culture.
Work time is work time. Play time is play time. Drive time is happy enjoyment fun time and if you make it vorse for anyone, ve vill fine you and you vill like it!
But the cars that get on the highways without speed limits can't be piece of shit clunkers, otherwise it'll get pulled over and towed.
Crashes are the result of differing speeds, not high speeds. Speed limits aren't about reducing traffic accidents. They're about keeping the crashes from turning into multiple-casualty catastrophes.
The parts of their highways that have speed limits are the parts that pass through urban areas.
It is also one of the hardest places to get a drivers license I think the minimum time it takes is 3 years
As i German, i love that the autobahn has no speed limit, but two, maybe three lanes are the most you will get most of the time, so you dont get to drive fast anyways.
Germany has speed cameras in an around cities, even on the freeways.
Yeah, there are no speed limits but as other commentors have noted, the requirements for a license are higher and you also need a special 'autobahn' license in addition to the regular one to drive on it. But, if that's the tradeoff, I'd much prefer stricter licensing requirements (so long as they're skill/training based and not based on irrelevant factors unrelated to your ability to drive) and no speed limit to relaxed standards (like we have in the US) and universal speed limits that are too low and that practically everyone ignores.
One drawback I haven't seen mentioned yet is that while the accident rates are similar, the fatality and injury rates that arise from those accidents are much higher. If you get into a crash going 65 (assuming you hit another car going 45 or something), you'll probably live and might not suffer anything beyond minor injuries. If you get into a crash going 110, the subsequent loss of control and proximate injuries will likely be far more severe. I'm not sure if a higher rate of injuries and death is worth getting to your destination faster, especially since accidents don't only hurt the person who caused them. I don't think people would willingly consent to the increased risk of serious injury as a result of other people's desire to speed and their judgements on safety.
The last factor is that US road and highway infrastructure is notoriously shit. The autobahn is very well maintained and is built for high speed driving (smother roads, better road surface materials, less potholes, etc). I have my doubts that removing the speed limit on US highways would be feasible without significant investments in infrastructure, driver training, and highway maintenance (so basically taxes up the ass). Without these, even a perfectly safe driver could get into an accident through no fault of their own if they're driving fast and hit a bumpy portion or an unusually deep pothole.
Am from germany and own a high speed car, i use this. Alot.
Building the road did.
It's almost as if people have a vested interest in not killing themselves...
Imagine trying to implement no speed limits in countries where half the population likes to camp in the left lane 😂😂😂
True but some people are so stupid the need it mandated by the government.
That’s a pretty huge stretch to come to that conclusion
Someone's never been to AL.
This is funny cause Germany is very far from Libertarian. There are tons of laws to curb certain human weaknesses. Like littering or public lewd acts for example you can get fined for flipping the bird at people. However Germany is really clean and the people are pretty decent to one another so it seems to be working.
Corporations don't care about personal responsibility.
*... in a homogenous society that respects its' government's laws.
The German highway traffic model is a good example for a libertarian traffic policy. Highways are better if made out of concrete, especially if it repairs itself
Are "no speed limits" an ideal in the libertarian party? Because I very much think speed limits are a good thing. Like when it involves protecting human life that's like the one time government should be involved
Purposefully ignores the fact that germany as some of the highest driving standards in europe.
Relevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/1958/
Agreed, we should let people drive as fast as they want through school zones, they sounds safe. I wish the lamestream media would cover ideas like this instead of Michael Cohen doing illegal stuff
Instead of focusing on simply speeding, they strictly enforce other laws. If you pass on the inside or are traveling more than 15 mph above (I think? don't remember the exact number) than traffic next to you, you will be severely penalized. It's not unusual to lose your license for 6 months for infractions like these.
Don't you get massive fines of your not following the rules of the road. I.e set amount of chevrons from the car in front.
The more you legislate, the less people will think for themselves, to the point where, for many people, right/wrong becomes interchangeable with legal/illegal.
I live in Germany. They do have fewer accidents overall, but the ones they do are usually very bad. Also if you drive over 130kmph you are at fault if you hit someone going below that. Germans have been taught specific ways to pass and yield, and most people follow the way they’re taught because its enforced. To have this same system in america you would have to change the whole mindset of american drivers. A lot of the autobahn is very well maintained. There is more to this post that isn’t mentioned.
German here. Unbelievable how the comments lie. To regulate is our thing. In every respect. Germany is a bureaucratic monster. The complicated and inflated tax system is legendary. The Germans prefer parties that impose a dominant state. Even our state-critical liberals would be socialist in the USA. Our culture also prefers extreme regulation of all areas of life. Punctuality and self-organization are very important. If something happened or something had to be implemented, a German would never think of citizens or companies. He always turns to the state.
Less laws is a major sign of a developed nation, more laws are the sign of an immature one still developing
All my tickets are from speeding on the freeway, in the fast lane, during an off-time (not rush hour). I don’t tail gate, I don’t swerve, and I don’t risk anyone’s life but my own by speeding in the fast lane (85 in a 65).
But, the cops don’t care. My insurance cost has skyrocketed, as if I’m a traffic hazard, even though I drive like an old man through residential/school zones.
BAN SPEED LIMITS ON THE FREEWAY.
I don't wana be that guy, while i agree all interstates should prob be the same system as the auto-bond. Germany doesn't have school's on its highways and interstates as well like america. granted a majority of the highway or interstate is not school zones when you take into account going hundred's of mph for some vehicles a speed limit sign might not be enough giving time to slow to a reasonable speed before you enter these area's.
Iam near Germany for autobahn will drive you nuts.
No speed limit zone - then 80kph zone - then no speed limit zone. When busy traffic can’t adjust fast enough and traffic slows way down - far into no speed limit zones.
No speed limit zone - left lane full. 100kph zone left lane wide open. Hurray for left lane asshats everywhere!
I will say that they seem to self regulate speed based on weather conditions. But even on a sunny day most cars are going 120-140 kph. The Mini Cooper my company got me for rental sucks fuel at 180-200kph. At $50-60 a fill up it gets expensive to go fast in a small car.
Nice poster, except that there are other studies that indicate that things like speed limit reductions and controls in residential neighbourhoods have a positive impact on traffic safety and severe crashes.
If you get a DUI, you lose your license forever. They get to drink and smoke at 16 or earlier in some cases, while driving is at 18. Too many differences to compare them by one single thing and expect your point to be proven.
Y’all dumb. The autobahn is the result of large scale state investment over a period of decades. It’s literally the result of large public spending (guess how it’s paid for- yes - TAX)
Doesn't it cost a lot of money to get a drivers license and they send you to driving school? I'm all for the driving school part
Ok so this is a very specific example and extrapolating that no regulation works 100% of the time from this can be very dodgy.
I agree until the last sentence, that this works doesnt mean anything at all for other scenarios
Yeah tbh much like each person should decide what to do with there own money and life etc each driver should decide how fast to go individualy some may go slow some may go fast but its a choice and not a gunpoint compulsion
If you did that in France, it would turn into anarchy by day 1 !!!!
They're also good drivers in Germany
Insurance companies love speed limits tho
I've driven on the Autobahn and never felt unsafe. Let me rephrase, I felt as safe on the Autobahn as I do on an Interstate in America.
Yeah but the autobahn also has some strict as hell laws when it comes to what lane your using. It also is thicker than your standard American highway to help with the wear and tear.
Give this freedom to the people of any country of southern Europe and watch the massacre.
The sections that have speed limits are mostly in city areas with tons of on- and off-ramps that's why there are more accidents. The free stretches are usually on the countryside with few ramps.Source: am German.
They may not require government mandate but they DO require a culture used to human cooperation and personal responsibility. The US culture couldn't handle this level of responsibility. We've been trained out of it.
Lol this sub posting about Germany is hilarious.
There was also a period in Minnesota or Montana or somewhere Midwest where there were no speed limits for several years and wasn’t an increase in accidents.
If you are interested in becoming edumacated (yes, I did it).
Hey those parts are the best the left lane becomes a great racetrack.
Making a lot of leaps here lol
Private roads will have better enforced rules
Gee I wonder who pays for the road.
Y’all are like the grown up edgelords, right? The people who were told your katanas were illegal so now you hate regulation.
Wow, that first sentence....
Maybe their social welfare and educational system is a long term reflextion of their citizen.
This is a terrible example for libertarianism... they have some of the strictest government mandated driving/vehicle maintenance laws that make the no speed limit possible...
there's actually been some long term studies (sorry, i don't have any links or paper names to give out, as i read the blurb in a journal in a mental health office lobby while i waited for someone) that stand by the fact that with fewer restrictions people tend to just go with what works (mostly).
sure, you still get the assholes, but most people will go with what they know works for a give stretch, and not push it, while the subconcious tends to 'ride' peoples mental processes and a certain percentage tend to go over it, even if its only by a little bit.
that said, know what your vehicle can and can't do. know how to make it do what you want it to, when you want it to, don't just 'coast' by with 'yeah sure i can drive, i don't need to learn how to handle a vehicle'. knowing how to work a steering wheel doesn't mean you know how to drive.
The purpose of speed limits isn’t to reduce accidents do much as it is to reduce the severity of accidents. We need more data before we can make a blanket statement.
And WHERE would the proof be?
The most selective, ideologically driven look at the highway system in Germany I have ever seen.
And I have thus defined the libertarian.
I agree but that's a flawed logic since speed limits are placed in accident prone areas.
We can all agree that we don't need drivers licenses. Noone should require the government's permission to drive.
That's wrong. There are 15% less deaths per Autobahn kilometer on speed limit sections compared to no speed limit sections.
Edited because words are hard.
The level of blind idealism on this sub puts even the far-left to shame.
If we didn’t have speed limits, how else would local police make a small fortune off of us?
Yeah but too bad companys will mess everything up and make the minimum wage 2 dollars and a pat on the back. Also any environmental laws will be removed so enjoy your local forest now.
Same amount of accidents. How about severity of those accidents? I’d say that’s a pretty big part of the equation, when it comes to car accidents.
This is sort of a perfect defense of regulation though. By having strong system of regulation in place in terms of a strict system for obtaining drivers licenses, vehicle safety, and good road conditions maintained by the state, and targeted speed limits in high risk areas, Germany can safely not have speed limits in low risk areas because of these other measures taken by government.
That end part is ridiculous. If that were true we wouldn't have to deal with climate change back when people first let us know about it.
There are multiple vehicle and driver safety requirements in Germany, all mandated by law, that make it safer for Germans to drive at higher speeds.
This would never work in Texas...
This is not a good example of “Liberty working.” Traffic behavior in a completely different country is hard to relate to an issue in the United States.
There are also a lot less toothless cousin fuckers in Germany
Driving on the Autobahn is a pleasure. If more Americans understood the concept of lane discipline our highways would be much safer.
Maybe one of our MAGA friends could explain why he needs $5,000,0000,000 of our money in the first place? I thought Mexico was going to pay for it.
I really thought the wall was just some bullshit he was saying on the campaign trail. This fuck really is going to do it. 🤣
Libertarians: "Don't threaten me with a good time!"
I love government shutdowns, even though they never shut it all down.
MFW the government shuts down --> :)
Sounds like a win win to me. I don't have to pay my taxes and the government stops doing things.
So win win? What's to hate about trump again? Oh right, he's not professional enough
I really tho